Hello from Fort Lauderdale

[islandRott]

Hello everyone,

I found your site searching for the words working or protection dogs and forum. This seems like a small site but friendly. I just want a place where I can shoot the shit about dogs without being flamed on by the expert resident clique. I used to train obedience and protection dogs professionally until I moved to another line of work. I never got away from the dogs though and today my interests are just as relevant. Living in S. Florida I feel the security afforded by good protection dog should be of interest to many people. I'm not discounting the possibility of starting training protection dogs again on a small scale but for now I just want to enjoy talking to dog people again.

Let me get a couple of things off my chest; I hate leerbur..., I hate workingdogf... and I think I hate rottweiler... more than both but then I'm not sure :D This to give you an idea of what I'm not looking forward too. Maybe I'm just assuming erroneously that you know these sanctimonious clowns..
Currently I have two pups that I'm trying out. One is a boerboel 3 months old and the other a rott 2 months old, both females which is sort of a first for me. I've never chosen to go with a female pup as a personal dog before.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/P9157717.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/P9157684.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/P9157687.jpg

Looking forward to sharing some dog thoughts with you,
islandRott

[islandRott]

Sorry, I just saw the Welcome to new members thread but couldn't delete this one.

[FranMan]

Welcome to the site. Always glad to see another Rotty owner in here. I grew up in the Palm Beach area and I miss back home for sure! How do your dogs do in the Florida heat?

[islandRott]

Thanks. I've had rotts as my breed of choice for almost 20 years. The best dog that I've ever known was a rott that belonged to a friend. I spent all this time looking for a similar dog but was never able to find it. I did own dogs that gave me one or two desired qualities but never the whole package. Still I never wavered in my quest of finding the dog I want within the rottweiler breed. I'm living in Florida for the last four years. I think the heat is the straw that broke the camel's back. These dogs are not suited for this climate. Owning a rott here you have to approach it strategically, allow it certain activity at certain times of the day and mostly indoors. That's not the way to keep a dog and I feel concerned all the time as I think about the sun beating down on that black coat. I know people keep them as outdoor dogs in S. Florida but I guess I have a soft spot, I'm always in the dog's head and can't come to terms with the dog handling the heat.

On another note I recently gave thought to introducing a different coat color back into the breed. I don't really know how feasible this is while still maintaining the temperament I'm looking for. (BTW I started a thread on this on rottweiler.. user name isla49 if you want to check it out.) but historically rotts came in different coat colors. I was thinking about fawn with black mask. I have this boerboel female which I considered using to this end. Frankly I'm pleasantly surprised with what I see in here so far. Not at all what I expected from what I thought was going to be just another mastiff type. I've had some experience working with molossers. The boerboel has no problem with the heat under reasonable circumstances.

[judgemenot]

Nice looking boarboel. we trained one last year up in CT. Gotta get the OB on that big gilr early, haha. She should be a bit easier with the heat as if I'm correct they are a S. African Mastiff breed.

[islandRott]

Thanks. You are correct they're a S. African breed.

My friend who's a pro trainer bred this litter. He told me that their trainability is good. I discounted his words as my experience with other molossers has been the contrary. Well, as I mentioned previously I was surprised. This dog is very trainable. I'll give you an example; this is the first puppy ever that I didn't have to teach to walk on leash at around 2 months of age. You know the inevitable moment where the pup will resist and plant its butt into the ground? This has always been the case and some offer more resistance then others. This is one of the moments where I gauge trainability in a pup. With the boerboel this moment was completely circumvented. She just walked and never offered resistance so I can't say I leash broke her.

Another example where I gauge trainability is putting the dog into a crate. Again very little resistance with the boerboel. She does everything I want just by talking to her. I'm really looking forward to 5-6 months when I'm going to start the formal obedience exercises. The way it's going now I think it will be a pleasant journey.

It is when you have some contrast when these things really become apparent. The rotty is stubborn and resistant. My thinking is why the hell deal with it unless in the end the unwilling dog will show some protective qualities superior to the willing dog. This of course remains to be seen.

[judgemenot]

Yeah Its been my experience that when the pups learn on their own really early they have a problem later with the tougher stuff. When the pressure comes along to do things YOUR WAY ya know. Hope thats not the same for your pup. The dog we trained last year was a 26 months old dog. He was waaaaaay off the map. He had bitten 3 people already and was around 205lbs. The problem was of course that the family didn't do any OB and the dog got away with murder. Then he figured out he got his way with growling and biting...took us a bit but he was able to train through it.

[islandRott]

I think I know what you mean. It's like if the pup went along with all of it, it never really had to deal with the pressure of doing something it doesn't want to do. This was the case with walking on leash, but not with a bunch of other stuff. She handles correction really well and doesn't have resentment after, doesn't shut down. Mind you all the corrections I use at this age are natural corrections, you know something one dog might do to another, no collar corrections. And I don't show the dog I'm angry with it after. So two minutes later everything is back to normal and apparently the dog is associating the correction with what it did or what it didn't do. I'm pretty confident it'll be smooth sailing. In any case I will not expect crisp performance from this dog. I'll settle for reliable. Over the years I've come to believe in demanding from the dog just what's required for reliable obedience and let go of the perfect stuff, you know super precise heel position and sit in front position, things like that. Of course I still draw the line somewhere, you give most dogs an inch and they'll take a yard :)

So I gather from your post you train other people's dogs? Takes some balls to take on a biting 205lb boerboel :D Did you have it muzzled?

[judgemenot]

Yeah thats exactly it. And your right not to do the correction thing at that age. I won't ever correct a dog at all unless the dog KNOWS and does not follow through with a taught technique.
Yep I train dogs for folks all over the country in an In-Kennel program. But we actually train the owner very well at the end.

With the big boy now...against my better judgement the first trainer actually started the dog in a bite suit. Which works if you want the dog to bite...But we finally got him under control through some positive stuff and taking our time with him.

[islandRott]

Apart from correcting the pup for things it shouldn't do like mouthing my kid or chewing on shoes I do and have corrected the pup at 3 months of age for things I asked it to do and it didn't. One example is going in the crate. The age is not so much a factor as the dog showing some indication that it knows what is expected. This is obvious when you tell it to go in the crate and it runs the other way :)


Do I understand correctly that the trainer wore a bite suit to protect himself during obedience training? Did he do this to handle the dog or just to be near the handler and instruct? Not very maneuverable unless it's the very light hidden bite suit and very hot. A muzzle would be so much simpler.

Is the website in your sig the training operation you run?

[judgemenot]

...not sure what you mean by the crate as we have a pretty easy way to get pups crate trained and rarely have an incident with all.

Yeah the trainer actually wore the suit. And If I remember right we tried about 10 muzzles from all over and not one would stay on this bad boy. Bull dog snout styles are tuff when they get up into the XXXL Mastiff types. To be honest this dogs head was the biggest i'd ever seen.

Yeah thats our site.

[islandRott]

Just telling the pup to go in the crate rather than carry it in or drag it in. I teach them this early on depending on how much understanding or resistance I start to get. The boerboel for example is going in on command since 10 weeks of age. The rotty is not ready yet. I don't use food. Just as you said I want them to learn to accept having to perform some things I ask of them that they may not want to do at an early age.

Yikes about the muzzle!

Nice site. Are you John Smithhart? Or the person in your avatar?

[judgemenot]

I'm John. The avatar is the wife to be. The human...not the pup...

[islandRott]

Nice to meet you John and congrats on the wife to be. My name is Dan. I'm a little shy about putting my last name online but suppose I will do it if I ever start offering training services through a web site.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss training problems with a professional dog person. I know as dog trainers we need to be perceived sometimes as having all the answers. Do you think this forum is appropriate for discussing training problems thus at times demonstrating that there are things we don't know? :)

[judgemenot]

I think this is a good one as it has very little experience on here yet. Also You know as well as I do most the time the only thing 2 trainers agree on is what a third is doing wrong! haha. But this is a very pleasant site.

[yordizabar]

And a welcome from the netherlands too!

[islandRott]

Thank you.

[islandRott]

Its been my experience that when the pups learn on their own really early they have a problem later with the tougher stuff. When the pressure comes along to do things YOUR WAY I was thinking about what you said today as it is apparent in the Rotti pup. I think this is prevalent and needs to be watched carefully with dogs that have low willingness. It's amazing to me how few rottweilers have good willingness these days. It's like it was bred out of them. I can't say I enjoy having a dog with low willingness. If they were exceptional in another area I could deal with it. But I once reasoned that the best protection dogs have good willingness. They consider their world in relation to their master which translates into a correct decision when the shit hits the fan.

[judgemenot]

Oh I agree very much. With Rotti's today it seems to be they are WAY more immature too long. The pressure they can take is way lower from a GSP, Mal, or alot of the bully breeds. but your right it was there before. Ive seen some seriously nice dogs out of Europe lately but am not sure the breed here is working they way the protection instincs used to.

[islandRott]

How does being immature longer translate into the willingness equation? In my experience willingness is present from the start or the dog doesn't have it.

[judgemenot]

I have to dissagree there. Age can have alot to do with things. I understand your standpoint is that you will only work with the best so your not wasting your time. As I have had to learn and grow in this career, the best has not always been there and I'd had to do with what I had. I have seen tons of dogs tossed aside early because they didn't fit the profile only for them to come back a year later better imprinted and just awesome in all areas. With Rotti's today Ive notice that waiting to put ANY kind of pressure on them is going to put out a better product.

[islandRott]

How does this go with what you said earlier about the need to put reasonable pressure on puppies right from the start otherwise it's harder for them to accept later on?

It's true there's a lot of garbage dogs out there. So far my predictions about this or that have been dead on not about tons of dogs but about dogs I was interested in. Some things are just so obvious in a puppy and they stay for the rest of a dog's life. I don't believe in miracles and wishful thinking. I know you meant "tons of dogs" figuratively, but there are not a ton of good dogs out there period. Never mind those that bounced back from a rough start.

Mind you I'm talking about fundamental qualities of temperament here like willingness or nervousness. Not whether a pup will overcome his fear of slippery tile floors.

[judgemenot]

I think if your talking about what you quoted me at then you need to know what I was saying is there is a way to put foundations there early so that dogs take pressure better later. Also the ones that have some natural insticts, lets say with obedience, may sometimes regress when the time comes to add that pressure to do skills faster, longer, further...
Also I think we have also moved back and forth with these lines. We started that debate a week or so ago and I think I was the last to post on it...

I think there more quality dogs out there if you can work at it from the new and older ways of things. Ive seen dogs come out one way that they would never have another. Yes tons might be a bit much but several for sure.

[islandRott]

I lost track of what we're talking about a little bit but here's some stuff I think about. When I started with dogs almost 20 years ago my approach to gaining control of a dog was rough. It always worked in the end because I was consistent with it. Some dogs came out great, some weren't happy, but all were under control. Since then I learned a lot and my approach to bringing a dog under control is a nice compromise between what it's capable of accepting and what must be done. Yet today in my breed of choice, the rottweiler, I see much resistance even to the softer approach. If I used this approach years ago I'd have SCH obedience dogs without any food or toy training. Yet the dogs of today are resentful of any training.

I propose that willingness was bred out of them. I believe it was bred out of them because breeders concentrate on other qualities, for the show ring, SCH obedience is done with food or toys (the competition has become an end in and of itself). I believe a lot of people don't even realize that willingness is genetically based. I know willingness/directability to be genetic. I can see it in a pup, there are tests for it. When I see a pup that I've taken as a potential personal dog displaying little willingness I don't want it any more.

For the average person who needs obedience on their dog this stuff is irrelevant. Any dog can be brought to CDX level. And most people don't know the difference between a willing and non willing dog, their dog is the shit no matter what. I'm talking about the kind of dog I'd like to own and the kind I'd give to someone else.

[FranMan]

Oh I agree very much. With Rotti's today it seems to be they are WAY more immature too long. The pressure they can take is way lower from a GSP, Mal, or alot of the bully breeds. but your right it was there before. Ive seen some seriously nice dogs out of Europe lately but am not sure the breed here is working they way the protection instincs used to.

I'll drop this pup of mine off for the week!!! She is an evil little jumping biting running around furball. LOL

[islandRott]

Which pup is this Franman, a rottie? I have a three year old daughter so I can't put off correcting a puppy for perceiving the child as a prey object. I've seen an approach where the pup is removed from circumstances that may require correction to not suppress its drive. This would mean keeping the pup away from the child and out of the household. I don't subscribe to this philosophy. Dogs with good drive can always be brought out later.

[cherbear]

Waahoo someone else in Florida! Welcome, I'm in St. Petersburg, Florida. Cute pups you got.

[islandRott]

Thanks. Here's some pics I took today. The mastiff is 3 months old now.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20081013-Boerboel02.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20081013-Boerboel03.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20081013-Boerboel01.jpg

[cherbear]

The mastiff has some huge paws. But I love the pic with the ears up the air.

[FranMan]

what are the lines on the rotty?

[islandRott]

I'm not into lines and pedigrees but here are they are if you can decipher them.

Sire.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/PedigreeRocco.jpg

Dam

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/PedigreeBluna.jpg

I tested the sire and dam. The sire is very good, a throwback to what rotts used to be 20 years ago. I wish I could own him. The mother I didn't put much pressure on as she was after puppies when I saw her but she's stable and has some self assuredness and aggression.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20090913-Rocco01.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20090913-RoccoAttack03.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20090913-RoccoAttack04.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20090913-Bluna03.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/da4095/Dogs/20090913-Bluna02.jpg

[FranMan]

Othello von der Teufelsbrucke
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=ROBPIT2VJ0

[FranMan]

My pup is the same age as yours. I'll have to get some new pictures of her this weekend. You can see her here.

http://realk9s.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188

[islandRott]

Mine was born July 18 so she's just about 3 months. She's developing very slowly size wise but I don't mind that at all, I'm curious to see her final size as both parents are very adequate. There are a couple of conflicting things temperament wise. She's got the right attitude with people, goes forward right up to a person that is behaving strangely even if it's a stranger. I saw this in her when I picked her out of the litter. With that she's not at all too playful aggressive, like with my 3 year old daughter.

On the down side she's sensitive to street sounds, traffic big noisy trucks. Also sliding objects that make noise. Normally I'd pass on a dog like this but I'm curious to see how this plays out, considering her very good reaction to people, after I socialize her to all those things.

She's been with me about a month and I don't feel that she has found her center yet. May be partially my fault as from the beginning I'd put the two of them together at times in the run and the mastiff that's a couple of weeks older was pushing her around. A week ago though I separated them to give the rott a better chance but this way it's a lot more work for me. She alerts very nice to strange goings on and has a bark that sounds to me like the beginning of a serious bark of a dog that wants to engage. Overall an interesting journey.

Forgot to say that she'd fail the farmer's test. Does not like at all to be picked up and never relaxes completely when cradled etc. I do a lot of handling with her like that and she's better now than when she first came but the resistance is still evident. I once had a male dog that was like that and he was a very tough dog.

[FranMan]

here are my shit eaters

[islandRott]

Is the little one a female? Looks a lot like mine.

[FranMan]

Is the little one a female? Looks a lot like mine.

yes she is.